These are the clues contained in the pages of Harry Pottter and the Half-Blood Prince which support the possibility that Snape is not really a Death Eater, has remained loyal to Dumbledore, and all through the book, Snape is working on Dumbledore’s Orders.
Since the book is virtually about Snape (it’s titled Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince, which we know now is the same thing as saying Harry Potter and Snape), we can’t possibly list here every mention in the book the relates to the mystery of Snape. But here are some of the ones that stood out as important to me.
(Page numbers shown are for US Edition/UK Edition.)
During the meeting that Snape has at his house with Narcissa and Bellatrix in chapter 2, Snape tries to explain to them why he never killed Harry all those years at Hogwarts when he had ample opportunity:
“Of course, it became apparent to me very quickly that he had no extraordinary talent at all. He has fought his way out of a number of tight corners by a simple combination of sheer luck and more talented friends. He is mediocre to the last degree…”
HBP pg 31/36
But we know Snape knows this is a lie. We know Snape knows that Harry is a powerful wizard. We know he knows Harry is a parselmouth. We know he knows Harry could conjure a corporeal patronus when he was just 13 years old. We know he knows Harry has stood up to and prevailed against Voldemort five times!
But not even one whole page later, Narcissa is crying to Snape she has something she wants to say, but has been forbidden to talk about by Voldemort. Snape immediately replies that she should follow Voldemort’s orders, and sister Bellatrix agrees. But Snape appears troubled by the conversation:
But Snape had gotten to his feet and strode to the small window, peered through the curtains, and then closed them again with a jerk. He turned around to face Narcissa, frowning. (HBP pg 32/37)
What happened to make him jerk the curtains closed all of a sudden and turn back to the women, frowning? Has he had a revelation?
It is only at this point that he confides in them that he already knows the plan, that Voldemort has already told him. He’s lying again!
If he already knew the plan, why would he have taken the position, just one moment earlier, that she should follow Voldemort’s law and not speak of it?
We know Snape is a powerful Legilimens, we learned that in the Occlumency scenes with Snape and Harry in Order of the Phoenix. Just in case we forgot about Legilimency, J.K. mentioned it just a few pages ago. Questioning Voldemort’s trust in Snape, Snape interrupts:
“You think he is mistaken? Or that I somehow hoodwinked him? Fool the Dark Lord, the greatest wizard, the most accomplished Legilimens the world has ever seen?”
HBP pg 26/31
Having just been on the verge of spilling the beans to Snape, Draco’s assignment must have been top-most in Narcissa’s thoughts, and in the quiet moment at the window, Snape saw it in her mind. He then lies to them about already knowing the plan, to gain their trust.
So, at the same time that Snape is trying to convince Narcissa and Bellatrix that he’s worthy of Voldemort’s trust, we can see he is lying to them, several times. That can only mean that Snape isn’t as loyal to Voldemort as he’d like Bellatrix and Narcissa (and us!) to believe.
Harry is talking to Hagrid after the poisoning of Ron, and Hagrid lets it slip that he overheard something he shouldn’t have:
I was comin’ outta the forest the other evenin’ an’ I overheard ’em talking — well, arguin’. … I jus’ heard Snape sayin’ Dumbledore took too much fer granted an’ maybe he — Snape — didn’ wan’ ter do it anymore … Dumbledore told him flat out he’d agreed ter do it an’ that was all there was to it.”
HBP pg 405/380
This clue comes right out and tells us that Snape is following the orders of Dumbledore, although we now see whatever Snape has promised to do for Dumbledore is difficult or unpleasant.
We also now have comfirmation that Dumbledore has a plan, which involves Snape, and Dumbleore is confident that the plan that Snape has agreed to will proceed.
For every Hogwarts year that is documented in the Harry Potter books so far, it stands out prominently that there has been a different Defense Against The Dark Arts teacher each year.
They even joked about it at the beginning of the previous book, when the kids are looking over their just arrived book lists for the year, and they’re wondering who assigned the Slinkhard book, as it meant Dumbledore had found a new DADA teacher:
Fred told Harry … “Dumbledore was having real trouble finding anyone to do the job this year.” “Not surprising, is it, when you look at what’s happened to the last four?” said George. “One sacked, one dead, one’s memory erased, and one locked in a trunk for nine months,” said Harry, counting them off on his fingers. “Yeah, I see what you mean.”
OotP pg 161/146
And in Half-Blood Prince, Harry, Ron and Hermione talk about this again when they are surprised at the sorting feast that Snape will be DADA teacher that year:
“Well, there’s one good thing,” [Harry] said savagely. “Snape’ll be gone by the end of the year.” “What do you mean?” asked Ron. “That job’s jinxed. No one’s lasted more than a year…Quirell actually died doing it…”
HBP pg 167/159
Ironically, it turns out, Harry was literally right. When Tom Riddle returned after a ten year absence to again request to be a teacher at Hogwarts, Dumbledore rejected him, and upon Harry’s questioning, Dumbledore gave us some important insight into the Hogwarts DADA teacher situation:
“Was he after the Defense Against the Dark Arts job again, sir? He didn’t say…” “Oh, he definitely wanted the Defense Against the Dark Arts job,” said Dumbledore. “The aftermath of our little meeting proved that. You see, we have never been able to keep a Defense Against the Dark Arts teacher for longer than a year since I refused the post to Lord Voldemort.”
HBP pg 446/418
So, Dumbledore himself is admitting he knows that Voldemort cursed the DADA teacher job. This means he knew about the curse when he assigned Snape to the job this year. But he never intended Snape to be in the job for longer than a year to begin with, as his plan for Snape to kill him and flee at the end of the year must have already been in place.
4. Don’t Judge A Book By Its Cover
When Snape comes into the bathroom after being alerted by Moaning Myrtle, he knows instanly that the Sectumsempra curse was used to injure Draco, because he goes right to work on him using the proper countercurse to reverse the damage. He then takes Draco to the hospital wing, ordering Harry to wait for him there.
When Snape returns, he asks Harry where he learned the curse, and Harry says he saw it in a book in the library. Snape puts his Legilimency to work again:
“Liar,” said Snape. Harry’s throat went dry. He knew what Snape was going to do and he had never been able to prevent it… The bathroom seemed to shimmer before his eyes; he struggled to block out all thought, but try as he might, the Half-Blood Prince’s copy of Advanced Potion Making swam hazily to the fore-front of his mind.
HBP pg 524/490
Snape then demands Harry bring him his books, Harry makes a detour and hides the book in the room of requirement, bringing Snape Ron’s copy of the book instead.
Snape must know Harry’s trying to pull a fast one on him, he knows Harry has the book, he saw it in his mind. But instead of pressing the point, Snape just gives him a dozen detentions.
Why would Snape do this if he wasn’t still working for Dumbledore? He lost his temper with Harry when he demanded Harry bring him the book, but then even though Harry lies to him about it, Snape remembers who’s side he’s on, and backs off.
5. Severus… Please…
If you believe that Snape is acting on Dumbledore’s orders to kill him (or possibly just make it look like he killed him, although he’d probably still be hurting him), then Snape’s demeanor and Dumbledore’s final words take on a whole new meaning.
…somebody else had spoken Snape’s name, quite softly. “Severus…” The sound frightened Harry beyond anything he had experienced all evening. For the first time, Dumbledore was pleading. Snape said nothing, but walked forward and pushed Malfoy roughly out of the way. … Snape gazed for a moment at Dumbledore, and there was revulsion and hatred etched in the harsh lines of his face. “Severus… Please…”
HBP pg 595/556
In that passage the reader is supposed to believe that Snape hates Dumbledore and feels revulsion for him.
But to help us understand the real meaning of Snape’s feelings of revulsion and hatred, J.K. used almost the exact same words for what Harry was feeling just one chapter previous:
“You…you can’t stop, Professor,” said Harry. “You’ve got to keep drinking, remember? You told me you had to keep drinking. Here…” Hating himself, repulsed by what he was doing, Harry forced the goblet back toward Dumbledore’s mouth …
HBP pg 571/534
Even though Snape was to kill Dumbledore on Dumbledore’s orders, it must have been something that was still really emotional and difficult for Snape to do, exactly as it was for Harry to make Dumbledore drink the potion.
The feeling of revulsion on Snape’s face was not for Dumbledore, but the act he knew he had to commit. The hatred was not for Dumbledore, but for what Dumbledore was making him do.
And when Dumbledore said, “Severus… Please…” he wasn’t begging “please don’t“. What he was really saying was, “Severus, please kill me, as you promised you would.”
Way back at the end the first book, when Dumbledore confirms for Harry that Flamel would die now that the philosopher’s stone was gone, Dumbledore explained:
“To one as young as you, I’m sure it seems incredible, but to Nicolas and Perenelle, it really is like going to bed after a very, very long day. After all, to the well-organised mind, death is but the next great adventure.”
SS/PS pg 297/215
Does that sound to you like someone who would beg to save his own life?
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The biggest clue is not even named in this topic…
Dumbledore trusts Snape with his life, we all know that. After Dumbledore was hurt by the Ring-Horcrux, it was Snape who saved him. Snape does know about the horcruxes, so if he is a deatheater, Voldemort knows about the Harry/Dumbledore plan to destroy them all. And then…well then…book 7 will be pointless.
ivar has a point
First of all, I’d like to say this: Dave Haber, you are a genius! I read the 6th book over again when I was bored one day and I just couldn’t believe this, so I typed in the URL “dumbledoreisnotdead” and got this site! (even though the name is changed now)…I do believe that snape is a good guy, and if =( dumbledore is really dead then snape and dumbledore are in on it together. But, I don’t really think that Dumbledore is dead…the only reason that I have any doubts about him being alive is because Jo has stated that he’s dead. As much as I don’t think she’d lie to us, why would she ruin the whole 7th book for us and tell us that Albus Dumbledore is actually alive? Of course not! She has not choice, but technically she wouldn’t be lying if she said “Dumbledore” is dead. She never said ALBUS Dumbledore is dead. Jo states on her website that “a wizard has other ways of getting his voice heard after he is dead”. OK well thats done, i don’t even know why i commented this on the snape clues thing…but whatever…
Molly
a loyal fan of “beyond hogwarts”
dave haber is so right in my opinion
This is a very well-thought out argument. I agree.
Let us not forget what Harry saw in the pensieve in Book 5-Severus Snape’s past. Abused at home, teased at school, raised on the prejudice of the superiority of pure-blood over Muggle-born wizards. Snape goes really bad and joins forces with Voldemort. Then along comes someone – Dumbledore – who offers him a chance for forgiveness and redemption in spite of the evil he’s done. Voldemort offered him power but maybe Dumbledore is the first person in his life to offer love. Let us not forget the importance of this ‘ancient magic’ to Dumbledore.
Remember in book 4 when “Mad-eye Moody” who was actually the son of Barty Crouch locked Harry in his office after he emerged from the Triwizard maze? When Dumbledor, Pfor. Mcgonagall and snape burst in through the door, Snape saw his reflection in Moody’s Foe-glass. Now if Snape was a death eater, why he be a foe of Crouch? (Who is also a death eater…)
Dave Haber is right but I was really thinking how the greatest wizard of ALL CENTURIES was killed? By a simple Avada Kedavra i don�t think so…
The biggest clue that I noticed is that after Snape ‘kills’ Dumbledore and is fleeing the castle with Harry chasing him, is that Snape keeps teaching him. He taunts him with how Harry can’t control is thoughts,
“Blocked again and again and again until you learn to keep your mouth shut and your mind closed, Potter!”
Snape is still teaching him, hoping he will learn to shut his mind off because if he doesn’t the Dark Lord will kill him.
I’ve asked this question so many times, without an answer. Perhaps someone out there, somewhere can answer it for me. Hermione reminds us repeatedly that no one can apparate or disapparate within Hogwarts. Then why are house elves able to do it?
Perhaps Hermione wasn’t quoting the rule specifically enough. It probably should be “no wizard can apparate or disapparate within Hogwarts”. House elves are not wizards, they’re an entirely different magical creature, bound by different magical rules (some of which are very oppressive to them, to Hermione’s chagrin…)
Does anyone find it interesting that Dumbledore insisted to Harry that he must make him continue to drink the stuff the horcrux was in no matter what? Could the substance be a potion perhaps? Who taught potions? The “half-blood prince” was a master at potions. There may not be a counter curse for Avada Kedavra but there could be a potion that protects against it. Just a thought.
That potion was created by Voldemort to protect his horcrux. I doubt that it would be anything that could help Dumbledore…
Mistral,
I think it very well could be that Snape could have burried a memory or some kind of instruction in Harry’s subconscious, which could surface in dreams..
and with the book also( Harry knowing how important information on ones enimies is) he may just make some sort of conection to how to close his mind off…. even how to invade another….
AJ
As to your question, why is Harry so rich? Jo said on her interview �IRELAND-ON-LINE 17. July 2005, she gave Harry a fortune as she was poor at the time and wanted him to have a lot.
Why don�t we hear of other Potter�s? Because Harry�s grandparents died and James was their only son!
Mistral
Even though Harry’s grandparents are dead along with their only son, James, I still find it odd that the “Potter” name is not more significant or mentioned on its own (above & beyond the James/Lilly/Harry connection). I guess I’ve always suspected that perhaps the Potter lineage rivaled (in a good way) the Malfoy/Black ancestory – with both being pure-blood lines. It’s probably nothing, but it always seemed “obviously absent” to me in the storyline as there seems to be more of a nod to the other pure-blood families pasts – but not the Potters.
Also…
Serius told Harry that all full blood families were related…
so how are Harry, Ron and Draco related?
AJ
It does seem odd that there are besides Harry, no POTTERS. JO told in an interview that Harry�s grandparents were elderly and had a normal death.
But as it so happens, there is a Potter family named on the BLACK FAMILY TREE CHARLUS POTTER and he was married to DOREA BLACK a grandchild of Phineas
Nigellus Black. They had a son, but no name is given. Some have speculated that this could have been James, Harry�s father.
Interesting fact is, in OotP when Sirius shows Harry the TAPESTRY with the Black family tree on, he never mentions that precise lineage. Maybe JO �left� that name out on purpose�!
She donated though “The Noble and Most Ancient House of BLACK,” a hand-drawn tree, to Book Aid International in January of 2006 and there the POTTER�s name was put in.
IF there are still some Potter-relatives of Harry around, they would surely distance themselves from him because of their PURE-BLOOD mania! They would not of forgiven James marrying Lily Evans, a MUGGLE WITCH.
Should Harry be related to these Potter�s it would explain to me why KREACHER accepted him as his new Master and Harry would be related to Ron and Draco as Kevin mentioned
Mistral,
according to the HP lexicon, the Potter that appears on the black family tree is too young to be Harry’s grandmother owing to the fact that JK has said that James’ parents were “old in wizarding terms”, which is why he was an only child.
Dorea {Black} Potter was only 57 when she died..
so there’s still another conection out there..
OK, I’m completely convinced Snape is good…I’m sorry that my memory may not be too good as I haven’t read the 3rd book in a real long time but what about the bonds between people for saving someone’s life. Harry saves Pettigrew from Black & Lupin, and James saved Snape from werewolf Lupin (maybe Snape has some bond with his son then?)…I don’t know, but maybe there’s something there…but I think that’s important, maybe…hmmm…
I am not sure if Dumbledore is even really dead. It could be possible that both Snape and Dumbledore sensed that Voldemort was beginning to suspect Snape of being a traitor. Hopefully most of you noticed that HBP was a lot about nonverbal spells. When Snape “killed” him, he may have actually been using a nonverbal spell to cast a green light and lift DD body into the air. 3 reasons: 1) In Goblet of Fire and Order of the Phoenix, Crouch(as Moody) and Bella Lestrange tell Potter that in order to use an unforgivable curse you have to mean it. You have to want to do it. 2) Every time JKR details a murder in the book, has the victim ever flown up into the air and come back down lightly to the ground? and finally, 3) At the funeral for DD Harry thought he saw the shape of a phoenix rise up with the flames that surrounded DD’s “dead” body. In Order of the Phoenix, we know that he used Fawkes to escape from Fudge and the other ministry officials. Just ponder the thought. DD may still be alive.
Oh, and I forgot to mention that in book Half Blood Prince on pg 29, Bella argues with Snape: “That was not my fault!” said Bellatrix, flushing. “The Dark Lord has, in the past, entrusted me with his most precious – if Lucius hadn’t -”
Could Bellatrix Lestrange have a horcrux?
I thought the unbreakable vow was a lot of exposition that went nowhere – which means there’s more from it to come in the next book. Could Snape & Dumbledore have made the vow giving Dumbledore reason to strust Snape? Then he begs Snape to kill him to protect Draco – he knows that there’s still hope for Draco if Snape kills him instead.
Mark
I don�t think that Bellatrix does have a Horcrux, but I am pretty sure she had one. That being the DIARY Harry was able to destroy in the Chamber of Secrets. Why else would she say in Spinner�s End “The Dark Lord has, in the past, entrusted me with his most precious – if Lucius hadn’t -”
It fits perfectly with what Mr. Borgin says in COS after Lucius Malfoy leaves his store. I quote: �and if the stories are true, you haven�t sold me half of what�s hidden in your manor!
It�s easy to see why Lucius Malfoy had the DIARY. Bellatrix entrusted it to him before she was arrested and sent to Azkaban. We all know what happened with the diary and WHYit was so precious to Voldemort. �Thanks� to Mister Malfoy it was the first Horcurx getting destroyed and him being in disgrace with Voldemort
The potion that was protecting the horcrux wasnt a potion that Voldemort made because RAB had already drank that potion and stole the real horcrux. Voldemort would not have made another potion protecting the horcux if it was already gone.
We don’t know that, Sabrina. The horcrux protection could have been set up by Voldy to refill itself if someone emptied it.
Yes, but I doubt that would have happened because why would Voldemort want the bowl to refill itself it the horcrux was already gone?
Very simple. Voldemort was banking on the fact that whoever was trying to drink the potion would fail to be able to drink it all. Therefore, to continue the protection, after someone fails to drink it all, it must refill itself.
Thats true, thank you for pointing that out.
I am really enjoying reading this thread and the very sound theories. Everyone here seems to make sense, except that one person from England who thinks Voldemort and Snape are related because they have black hair(!-and what about Harry, eh?) and that Snape is Harry’s actual father( I suppose James’ genes jumped from him to Lily and from Lily to Harry without Snape’s own genes ever making so much as an appearance – oh! except for the black hair!)
Anyway, I found something that didn’t fit in with the general charcter of Snape. Snape has always been portrayed as cold and rational. While standing in front of Dumbledore, imagine for a moment that he was acting in loyalty to Voldemort through the Unbreakable Vow. Don’t you picture him doing the murder in cold blood instead of with hatred and revulsion on his face? What is the need for all this strong feeling against DD when DD had trusted him completely and even accepted him into the Order? Throughout the series, Snape has shown strong feeling in only certain specific cases:-
1. Hatred towards harry
2. Hatred towards James/Sirius
3. Fear/Revulsion towards his identity as a Death Eater (for instance regarding the Dark Mark when the fake Moody mocks him)
Everything else that he has done points to his apparently imperturbable and rather detached manner(e.g. in meting out punishments). So it makes sense that the hatred and revulsion he feels is for the murder rather than for DD.
I know it sounds far-fetched but like Hercule Poirot, I prefer to delve into the personality traits of the suspect or the victim rather than the fingerprints and cigar ash. The personality of the victim has already given us a clue ( that Dumbledore pleaded for his life when he never really feared death is too much of an abnormality to be true).
Another point I found interesting was that of Snape arguing with Dumbledore that there was something he(Snape) could no longer do. If indeed this were proof of Snape’s loyalty to Dumbledore wavering, he was too smart to go and reveal it to Dumbledore. Snape knows that Dumbledore may be trusting, but he’s no fool. It makes more sense if Snape was showing reluctance in the plan to kill Dumbledore, either due to his own conscience getting in the way, or because he knew he would be a hunted man after the murder.
What if Dumbledure said “Severus…please…” becuase he doesn’t want to believe that he’s evil?
I think DD was asking Severus to kill him quickly and get everyone off the tower right away, because if DD had died slowly from the potion the spell holding Harry in place would be broken and he(Harry) would be discovered.
Everyone is saying that R.A.B. is Regulus Black.
After doing some research [thanks to wikipedia] I have discovered the following facts.
One. On the locket, there was a engraved snake. After 6 Harry Potter books, us readers have learned that snakes are solely connected to Slytherin.
Two. This is something that may be difficult to understand. We can’t forget that fateful part in the HBP when Harry and Dumbledore crossed the lake to find the Horcrux. Under normal circumstances, Dumbledore would have to go alone, however, Harry, being underage, was allowed to cross as well.
Now here’s the tricky part. We all know Kreacher, the Black’s formidable house elf, and we know how crazy he is. We also know that Slytherin’s will save their own skins if nessecary, not caring about others as long as they stayed alive. So, what if Regulus, who knew where the Horcrux was, took Kreacher with him, and had Kreacher drink the potion. Since Kreacher is not classified as a wizard, wouldn’t he and Regulus be able to cross the lake without any problems?
The locket states the R.A.B. will be dead by the time Voldemort reads this, but the Horcrux will be gone. So there is a chance that Regulus Black is R.A.B.
Three. This is a quote from Wikipedia;
“Isabel Nunes, the Portuguese translator of the series, claimed to the Portuguese website Nimbus Network that R.A.B. is indeed Sirius’s brother. She asked the gender of the mystery character, for matters of translation, and in the answer she received not only the gender, but the name: Regulus Arcturus Black.”
Regulus Arcturus Black > R.A.B.
Also, if you look at the black family tree, you will notice names repeated. For example, There are 2 Sirius Blacks’. So Regulus could have been given the same middle name as one of his relatives.
Four. Another quote from Wikipedia;
“Support for the theory that Regulus Black is R.A.B. has been gathered from the translation of Half-Blood Prince to other languages. In the Dutch translation of the novel, Regulus Black is called Regulus Zwarts and the initials in the locket are R.A.Z. In the Norwegian edition, Regulus Black is called Regulus Svaart, and the initials R.A.S. are in the locket, while in the Finnish translation, Regulus Black is called Regulus Musta, and the initials are R.A.M.”
Doesn’t it seem fishy that even in 3 other languages, the first two intials are still R.A.? This seems very strange.
Five. This is the last quote from the 5th Harry Potter Book, it is also the biggest explanation for my little theory.
“… he was murdered by Voldemort. Or on Voldemort’s orders, more likely, I doubt Regulus was ever important enough to be killed by Voldemort in person.” � Sirius Black.
Who knows where Sirius got this information. But let’s focus on another part of this quote.
“… he was murdered by Voldemort, or on Voldemort’s orders more likely.”
Perhaps Regulus was not killed because he chickene out, but because he betrayed Voldemort by destroying the Horcrux.
Wow, after all this, I am believing more and more that R.A.B. is most defiently Regulus. Thanks for the time it took to read this message.
-Julia =)
Ken
Wow�.do you know how lucky you are over in your country? I wish I could have seen that extended version of PoA! Two weeks ago they promised on TV that we could watch the extended version of CoS�.what a laugh�.they didn�t even put all the scenes in we all have on the DVD Version! I was able to compare it, because I have friends over in New York who sent me last year that extended version of CoS, which was on HBO.
Out of curiosity, I took out my copy of PoA and had a look at that scene you described, with Snape protecting Hermione, Ron and Harry. Is there more now on that scene than before? Also interesting how Snape�s most concerned about Harry, when he runs after Werewolf/Lupin and Black dog/Sirius and calls him to come back! The more I watch those scenes with the time-turner, the more I get confused!
Is this totally deranged when I say; there is a chance that Snape came up with that strong PATRONUS SPELL?
Maybe this scene is one of the �Foreshadowing things� JO was talking about, while being interviewed together with director Alfonso Cuaron!
about the article on Snape’s clues.. if Snape was really protecting Harry, then why did he try to open Harry’s mind further (as what Ron suggested in Book 5) during Occlumency lessons? Snape does seem like he’s trying to harm Harry.. do give some suggestions on this =)
Harry was the one that did the powerful patronus spell. It was already revealed in that same book. If Snape had done it, I doubt the patronus would have been a stag especially since snape hated James with every atom in his body. And It says that after Harry did the strong patronus the second time(after going back in time) he saw Snape wake up and take everyone up to the castle.He was on the same side of the lake as SIrius and the others.
Marc
The second �Patronus� was definitely Harry�s which I never doubted. You are right; there is the stag, which was surely not Snape’s!
Come to think of it, did you notice that in the movie, Snape comes running out of the �Shreiking Shack� and immediately protects Harry, Ron and Hermione with his body? That would mean in the movie version of PoA, Snape�s NOT unconscious when Harry runs after Sirius, before the Time-Turner scene! You see where I am going? I know book and movie do always have discrepancies. Why has never anybody talked about this alteration?
I ask myself more than ever, who pulled that first Patronus Spell? Don�t you think that there was something odd going on the first time around? Without Harry and Hermione going back IN TIME, Sirius and Buckbeak would have died, that�s a fact. Harry however, was saved down by the lake together with Sirius, with the Patronus Spell, seen by Harry, before he fainted.
Like I said, the more I think about that scene, the more confused I get. I give up��! Can someone help me?
I believe that Snape is good, and that is all there is to it. There must be something Dumbledore didn’t tell us, because otherwise he wouldn’t have trusted him. He’s not stupid.
A clue I found was that Harry was forced to watch Dumbledore arc out of the window after Snape hit him with “Avada Kedavra”. We all know that this is not the acutal spell that Snape performed, because if it was, A) Dumbledore would have just slumped over dead and B) Harry’s “Petrificus Totalus” would have stopped working well before Dumbledore hit the ground.
The spell I think Snape used instead is the same one he used on Harry while they were battling. Harry arced up, and when he hit the ground, all the breath had been knocked out of him. (sorry I don’t have the direct quote, I don’t have the book with me at the moment) It was only when Fawkes, a Pheonix with many magical healing properties, whooshed by him that he actually got his breath back. The spell had the same effects on both of them, and it would have killed Dumbledore because of the long drop from the tower and his increasingly unstable condition.
To back up one of the points made in the actual essay, we know that to perform an Unforgivable Curse, you must have a huge hatred for the person. You cannot just aim your wand and say the words. Now that we know that Snape did not use Avada Kedavra, we know that when he said the words he could not hate Dumbledore or else the curse would work. The hatred and repulsion etched in his face must be for what he is doing, not the person he is doing it to.
Sorry if someone has already posted a similar argument, I havn’t had time to look at the previous 11 pages of comments. I think this is a wonderful site and if I hadn’t found it I would have been angry at Snape until the next book came out. That would have been very bad. So I guess I’m saying thank you!:)
Yeah, I agree. The new director kind screwed it up. Something as simple as Snape being knocked out might have led to some big clues. Who knows?
Ting
Hermione also suggested that maybe it was like an illness and had to get worse before it got better. A few times during the lessons Snape would suddenly become filled with rageif all Harry did was fail to protect himself. Snape hates Harry but I believe he is trying to protect Harry, no matter how indirectly.
Okay, now that I’ve had the chance to read over most of the comments ( I stopped at about page 6, I couldn’t bear it after a while), I have time to say my own thoughts about some of these things.
Snape and Lily did not perform an Unbreakable Vow. There would have been no point, and after Snape called Lily a Mudblood, I honestly can’t see why she would ever want to speak to Snape again.
However, this says nothing about Snape’s feelings for Lily. I believe that Snape did love Lily, and that is the importance of her eyes in the 7th book. Snape will have seen the eyes of the one person he loved on the body of the one person he hated.
This is my theory: Once Snape found out what Voldemort wanted him to do, he begged Voldemort not to kill Lily. I believe that initially, he refused and called Snape weak for loving someone that much. Then, Snape went to Dumbledore. He knew that Dumbledore alone had the power to help Lily. When Snape went to Dumbledore for help, he broke down. Everyone had breakdowns, it’s natural. His passion for Lily and his concern for her safety probably would have caused some chain reaction inside himself, especailly if he had to explain it all outloud. Pain seems much more real when it’s out of your head and out in the open.
Anyway, while Snape was having his breakdown, Dumbledore could have performed Legilimency. This would have been the only time that Dumbledore would have been able to do this, considering that Snape is the most accomplished Occlumens in the world (JKR never actually said this, but I’ve come to assume it to be true). This would be the reason that Dumbledore knows that Snape is good, and the Dark Lord doesn’t. Though Voldemort may be the most accomplished Legilimens (although I believe that Snape said this to embellish for dramatic effect, or to make Narcissa believe that he was trustworthy), Snape could be his match in Occlumens. This is why he could last so long as a double agent.
My prediction is that Snape will reveal this to Harry as they battle in the 7th book, which is how we find out.
In response to Mistral from Switzerland, the first Patronus is the same as the second Patronus. There is only one Patronus cast. There are two Harry’s in this scene. One Harry is the Harry that went down to the lake to save Sirius and found the Dementors. This Harry attempted to conjure a Patronus, but failed. The Harry that actually conjured the Patronus was a couple hours older and had already saved Buckbeak and saw the Patronus. He went back in time and went to see his father. Instead of meeting his father, he cast a successful patronus that saved himself (the 3 hours younger version of himself) from the dementors. The 3 hours younger Harry saw the 3 hours older Harry casting the Patronus.
That probably doesn’t clear it up for you, but just think about it. If you went back in time, you would be in two places at once, correct? Harry was in two places at once. One place he was dying, and at the other he was saving himself from the dying.
Harry cast the patronus charm that saved Serius and himself…..
He had gone back in time so he was there the first time it happened, both as the rescuer and rescuee…
that was why Hermione was so careful to warn Harry about the dangers of time travel… if you don’t keep track of events, you’ll loose your mind..
I think Dumbledore trusted Snape completely because when Snape turned from the Dark side, Dumbledore made him swear an Unbreakable Vow never to go back. He could, therefore, be completely trusted, because the instant he truly turned evil, he’d be dead.
Where does it say anywhere in any of the books that Snape made the unbreakable Vow with Dumbledore?
Nowhere. It’s just a logical conclusion based on the fact that we know Dumbledore trusts Snape and we have no reason to understand why.
All we know is that Dumbledore has to see the best in anyone. Who knows? Maybe you are right. JK does like to throw suprises at us.
I’m not really sure what to think. Some of your clues make sense, but the one about Dobby saying that he would throw himself up off of the topmost tower (this being the very same tower that Dumbledore died on), I think that this was just emphasis that Dobby would throw himself of a very, very high location instead of it having something to do with Dumbledore.
I do think that some of your other comments are sheer genius, though. Thank you. I still stand firm in my opinion that Dumbledore is dead, but you’ve changed my thoughts about the reason why he died. At first I thought it was because Snape did it because of the Unbreakable Vow, and now I think I did it because Dumbledore told him to.
Hello, again. I can’t wait to read the sixth book again! I haven’t read the entire site, but I do think that I should keep reading.
In response to Erin, I don’t think that Snape made an Unbreakable Vow. He went back to Voldemort, didn’t he? And whether one is good or evil really depends on your point of view, and I don’t think that Unbreakable Vows are meant to be subjective. Plus, if Snape made an Unbreakable Vow not to go back, he wouldn’t have been able to make his Unbreakable Vow to Narcissa, would he?
I just wanted to throw this out there…in book 5 OoP when Harry is given there paper to memorize the location of the Order’s headquarters he recognizes the writting. “Harry looked down at the piece of paper. The narrow handwriting was vaguely familiar…” This strikes me as similar to the desccriptions of the Prince’s handwriting in book 6 as “…small, cramped handwriting…” Just something I had on my mind and thought this was a good forum to see what others thought.
That makes sense… but I thought that Dumbledore was the Secret-Keeper for the Order. I might be wrong, I dont’ have my OotP with me at the moment. He told Narcissa that he wasn’t the secret-keeper so he couldn’t tell Voldemort… but if Dumbledore was the secret keeper, Harry would have recognized the handwriting right away. If it is Snape’s handwriting, then it proves that he is good, because he could have told Voldemort but didn’t. That’s a great point, Roper! I never would have thought of that.